DeTomaso Mailing List: July 98, Message #52

Hmmmm. What's gonna happen in another 10 years... when the supply of
Clevelands has dried up worse than it already is.....

Dan had a good point, or several.. No flames please.
Bellhousing, flywheel, etc DO bolt right up as should clutch slave mount.
Motor mounts are different????  Not in my books..... small block mount is a
small block mount... unless you have a convertible. Perhaps there is
something in the DeTomaso casting that doesn't fit against the Windsor
block....???  (Cleveland and Windsor motors are sorta considered "mid"
blocks that have small block patterns.)  The AC mount sounds like the only
really special part specific to the Pantera (besides the headers). I'm
guessing that alternator mounts would be stock Ford, as would the water
neck outlet (which IS different than a Cleveland). Yes main webs are
beefier. But main bearing size is bigger too. I've seen bearing spacers for
those that must have a smaller main size... The cranks in old Windsors are
higher content nodular metal (strong!) and can take a lot. These cranks are
good for 6 grand. Most owners aren't! (Big thing to keep in mind...... be
real!) (How many big$ engines actually see big rpm's!? Big engine$$ usually
means big paint job$$, means sit in the garage now.... like Shane eluded!)
I'd rather see a 351C 2V engine in the car than a big bucks Nascar spec'd
motor that only does the 7-11 thing..... A 2V Cleveland is nothing to
dismiss lightly! They pull a lot of mid to late 70's mongo boats around
real good! (mongo boat... see 75 Cougar or 74 Station Wagon...)

At the PCNC meeting the other nite, Roger Sharp had a catalog of all sorts
of go fast goodies! Adaptor plates R us!  Put Cleveland heads on your
Windsor, and with an adaptor plate, run a stock Boss 2 intake! Or, run
Windsor heads and an adaptor plate and a Boss 2 intake.... or or or... lots
of options! I do not remember who the company was though. Evidently they
have been in this market for years.... port plates for raising exhaust
ports of Cleveland heads... way too much fun!  Here, you could change your
bottom end, retain the big heads, and have cake and Edith too! From the
posterior end, it would be real tough to tell that you changed anything!

It sort of sounds like youse guys are thinking that a Windsor won't do the
rumble rumble shake your fillings out thang... demand attention from that
blonde arm toy in the plastic fantastic thing at the light, make her
question her choice of arms...?!!! Do the testosterone thing?   I think
that Dan or Mikey had it right, there are a lot more choices for these
motors than with the Cleveland. imho!  Plenty of stroker kits around too!
400 inches plus is extremely common in the ads for such kits in the
performance rags.
  
Does a Windsor decrease the value of the car?  Does a rear spoiler? Does
painting the car red? Does cross drilled rotors and brembro brakes? Fender
flares?  I think an engine change would not. How many Pantera owners, and
you are out there reading this, even know what a Windsor looks like? With
the right valve covers, one might never even notice... your car could have
one in it already! Panteras seem to be fairly immune from owner mods
devaluing the car unless done extremely poorly. With proper execution the
proper mods will be seen as an enhancement. The Boss 302 swapped into our
'Goose is normally considered an "ooh aah" type of thing. "Sure to be worth
more..."  Until you get into it and discover the sort of cheesy short cuts
and little details that are often overlooked in haste...  Now that I've
spent about 30-40 hours cleaning up the little details... it IS a
desireable upgrade sort of thing to do. In the condition that we got it,
the swap was actually a detraction due to the sorts of problems that were
"built in" to it.

So, Kris's original question about being "desireable to swap in a 351W" is
one that has several answers... depending on the car and it's history, or
not, and what the owner wants in the end... it's all do-able, you just need
$$$. Mikey and I would add that we need 28 hour days..... If indeed you did
scatter a Cleveland to the point that you need a new block, then this may
be the time to get the spreadsheet out and rethink the lower end if nothing
else.

We should consider ourselves fortunate to have so many options available to
us!

Get out the extinguishers!
Steve