DeTomaso Mailing List: August 98, Message #307

>John,
>
>What's the word on your engine? Did you decide what you're going to do?

I spent last Saturday disassembling the rear of the P to exume the engine
and appraise the damage caused by the failed solid roller lifters.  It has
been a toaster in Texas so I took my time with plenty of pool breaks with
the kids.  Working on a clean car makes the task a lot easier and I was
delighted at how smoothly the project went.  Frankly, I've taken these cars
apart so many times I was not excited about doing it again so I was glad it
went without a hitch.  Sunday morning Kirby Schrader came by and together
with the assist of my neighbor and a hydraulic lift we removed the 351C and
ZF.

Since outside temps were in excess of 100 degrees, we took a few breaks to
view our Pocono video.  Kirby had some excellent in car camera shots that
included some taken by me riding as a passenger in Ron Graves car behind
Kirby.  Ron, I'll get a copy to you very soon.  Fortunately for Kirby, but a
loss to the rest of us, the camera mysteriously shut off when Kirby went
into his spin entering Devil's Elbow.  Nexy year, we agreed that we needed
to do a better job of filming the listers along side their P cars.

Being the good sport that he is, Kirby agreed to endure the heat a little
longer as we opened the engine.  First order of business was to remove the
harmonic balancer.  Well surprise, surprise, the outer ring had separated
from the inner.  This would not have been good at Pocono!

Our aim here was to try to remove the cam while one of the solid roller
lifters was stuck in its bore.  Mike Trusty was right. The cam had ground so
deeply into the lifter's roller that it had spread the lifter base.  We
couldn't extract the cam with the lifter in place.  Trusty had made two
suggestions to remove the spread lifter.  One was to try prying it out - I
was loath to attempt this fearing damage to the block.  The other suggestion
was to remove the plug at the back of the motor and with a long punch bend
back the base of the lifter.  This method worked fine from the rear of the
engine, but we had no angle from the front and were concerned about damaging
the cam's bearings.  Next thing I see is Kirby prying out the lifter.  I was
amazed that he seemed to be making progress and there was no sound of the
block cracking.  After employing several different lever and fulcrum
combinations along with donating several layers of skin from his knuckles,
the lifter came out of its bore.  The lifter was not a pretty sight as it's
roller was squared off and the damage to the cam lobe implied it was
probably not regrindable.  Of course this meant that there was plenty of
metal flowing through the block.  Ah yes, I forgot.  Metal, metal every
where. My brass distributor gear with 4k miles on it was paper thin and
brass shavings were everywhere in the engine. (The first and last brass
distributor gear that I will ever use.)  Another failure awaiting me at
Pocono.  Jack, I read with humor your post about checking them every 15K
miles.  If your running them with an aggressive cam and high volume pump you
might want to be more diligent.  On the other hand, my engine bearings
inform me the added metal doesn't work as well as teflon when it comes to
lubrication.  I understand that teflon does't work either. The rod and main
clevite bearings had copper visible - the worst looking bearings in any
engine that I have seen to date.  Fortunately the crank jouirnals were not
damaged.  Pistons in bores 1 and 4 had also scored their bores implying an
oiling problem.  Haven't miked the bores yet to determine if a hone will
clean them up.  The bores are already .030 over, and if they don't clean up,
I'll be in the market for a new block as well.

Next steps:

On Dan Jones recommendation, today I contacted Scott at Cam Research.  Scott
is an independent that works on Ford motors only.   He tells me that he used
to work for the big guys, but thought he could do it better on his own. He's
been at it since the early '70s.  I told him my experience with different
cams,challenges with the solid roller and desire to build power in my motor
between 3k & 6k RPM.  These were his thoughts.

1) He advises his customers running solid roller lifters to change them
Annually.   Was not surprised about my failure.              Ouch$$

2) Hydraulic rollers have worked well in Clevelands but their weight limits
RPM to about 6200.  The heavy spring pressure required to overcome their
weight stifles their operation with the oil.    I had considered a hydraulic
roller cam prior to witnessing the bronze gear metal throughout my engine.
His response......

3)  In about 9 weeks Crane is bringing to market a carburized roller billet
cam that is compatable with a steel gear.  Can I be patient?  Well, I'd miss
the event at TWS and if hydraulic rollers aren't rev happy, than why bother.


4)  Edlebrock Performer Manifolds suck - toss them in the garbage.  Claims
Vic had it all wrong.  While big ports into a small port may provide added
velocity when you need it, at the point mixture is entering the combustion
chamber, small ports into a large one in the head cause stalling of the
airflow.  Claims to have evidenced their lackluster performance on lots of
dyno runs.  I expressed my incredulity offering half the Pantera world
including I use the manifold.  - He stood his ground.

Order of preference for manifolds running sub 6k RPM

    a) Ford Power Parts 'Blue Thunder' if your bucks up at ~ $350
    b) If you can stand the weight, the stock 351C intake.

5) Pete Jackson gear drive.   Avoid gear drives on a Cleveland - they rob
power.  Use a Chain.

6) Strongly, very strongly recommends port plates.  Both exhaust and intake.
His experience on the Dyno has always shown improvements in power with
Cleveland 4 barrel heads.  I know of others that swear by them, but, have
sensed opposite feelings from the list.

7) Loves aluminum flywheels for track performance when you are accelerating
out of an apex in the 3K RPM range.

8) His cam recommendations: keep in mind, I am not looking for highway
performance but rather track performance where I'll keep the RPMs in the
3-6k range.  He would recommend less duration for street performance.

Solid cam - 226I & 235E @ .050:  .540 LI & .560LE  w/ 110 LC
Hydraulic  - 225I & 235E @ .050:   .548 LI & .568 LE  w/ 110 LC

My Solid Roller was  238I & 246E @ .050: .640 lift w/110LC

He sees no advantage to me using the solid cam for my application.  I
encouraged him to give me more duration and he advised against it.  He
reiterated he was only recommending this much duration since I wasn't
concerned with acceleration under 3K.

Dan, I saw that the cam he had suggested for you was 218I/222E.  Are you
satisfied with its high RPM performance?  I know that your running different
heads which probably negates useful comparison, but, at what RPM does your
acceleration level off.

Has anyone else worked with Scott or care to offer your opinion on his
suggestions?

Thanks

John T.