DeTomaso Mailing List: October 99, Message #98

>I'm not a Detomaso owner, but was told to contact you folks, as many of you

>run the 351C. In the past have built many street rods, but being a 43 year 
>old teenager, am wanting to step up to Pro ET racing. I need something 
>foolish to pour my hard earned money into. I have a 65 Mustang,

Be careful, this is how I ended up with a Pantera.  I had a '66 Mustang 
fastback with a 351C swapped in and decided to join the list to learn about 
Clevelands.  Next thing I know I'm signing a title.  

> 9" rear, C-6 auto trans, and 351C. I am making my target ET to be in the 
> mid to high 11's. 

The C6 will probably require tunnel mods and may cause header interference.

A C4 is a better fit, lighter, and uses less horsepower.  I started with a 
C4 but then switched to a Tremec TKO 5 speed.

A 351C will fit only with special swap headers available from Total 
Performance, Tubular Automotive, and Pro Mustang Performance .  I have 
the ones from Total Performance but they were poorly made so I'd look 
to the other two sources.  

A few months ago, Mustang Illustrated ran a "Cleveland Rocks" article, the 
first in a series that will detail a 351C engine build up and installation 
into a '65 or '66 Mustang fastback using the headers from Pro Mustang 
Performance.  The swap information may be of use but I strongly caution you 
to ignore the information on Clevelands in that article and in the 351C 
versus 351W article in the May issue of Mustang Monthly.  Both articles 
are riddled with errors.  I guess that's what happens when you hire 
journalism majors and not engineers or hot rodders.  You can search the 
archives for my reviews of both articles.  The archives are located at:

http://realbig.com/detomaso/

In light of recent discussions of 351W versus 351C in Panteras in which I 
argued in favor of retaining the 351C, some may find it surprising that I 
recommend a 351W over a 351C when it comes to early '65-'66's, particularly 
since I own a '66 with a 351C.  However, I do.  The primary reason is the 
351W is a better fit in the narrow shock towers of the '65-'66 Mustang
engine 
compartment.  Either engine will do the trick but you'll probably have fewer

hassles with the Windsor.  If you want to do it with a Cleveland, that's
fine 
too.  It'll get the job done.  One big variable is shock tower sag.  I've 
seen one 351W swap that needed the towers porta-powered back apart before
the 
engine would go in.  My 351C went in without such work so there's a lot of 
variation from car to car.  I've included my swap notes on both 351C's and 
351W's in the copy I've sent directly to you.  They're probably not of much 
interest of Pantera owners and I think they are too long to make it through 
the list server anyway.

If you're really serious you may want to swap to a Mustang II front end and 
ditch the towers completely.  Alternatively, I've heard of guys grafting a 
front end off a '67-'68 (which was designed to house a big block FE) onto a 
'65-'66.

>And I do mean any advice... Slick size to run, 
>gearing of rear end, frame and suspension mods to insure a good hookup, 

I can't help you on gears and slicks but you'll want at least a good set of 
subframe connectors (Global West or Total Control), export brace, Monte
Carlo 
bar, and a brace between the lower subframe rails.  Also might want some 
bracing at the rear (see the Boss 302 chassis book).  Better would be a full

cage.  Seam welding is a good thing to do as well.

>Unsure of how to gear the rear end, but it's a 9" posi. 

You'll want at least the 4 pinion trac-loc or, better yet, a locker or
spool.  
You'll also want at least the 31 spline axles.  There's a lot of variation
in 
9 inchers.  I've included my 9" notes in the copy forwarded directly to you.

>Will run the engine with closed chamber heads, but that's all I know 
>for sure at this point. I can say I'm very impressed with everything I've 
>heard and read about the 351C, a very impressive motor. 

It can make impressive power but, like all engines, it has its weak 
points.  Address them and you'll have a winner.  I don't know what the 
rules are in your specific class or your budget but a typical drag only 
build would include a Holley Strip Dominator intake, closed chamber 4V 
heads (bowl work, milled and drilled for guideplates and screw-in studs),
and a big solid flat or roller tappet cam.
 
Sonic check the block for wall thickness (stay under 0.030").  Bush the 
passenger side lifter bores and install screw-in restrictors (I'll send 
the details from a previous post), invest in a good valvetrain (quality 
stainless one piece valves, titanium retainers, stud girdle, roller 
rockers) and ARP fasteners.

You can use the prepared stock rods (beam polished and peened, ARP rod 
bolts), stock crank, and TRW forged pistons or upgrade to 6" Eagle (or 
similar) rods with Chevy journals.  If rules allow, stroking to 3.75" 
is a good compromise between extra cubic inches and RPM.  You can also 
upgrade the heads to SVO high ports (available used) which retain stock 
valvetrain and pistons but require a matching SVO intake and headers 
(due to raise port locations) or Yates/Brodix/Edelbrock Victor heads 
which require custom everything.  However, a set of stock cast iron 4V 
heads will support the sort of horsepower you're looking for.
 
>Will not be running a 
>rev limiter, breakout box, tranny break, or any other black boxes. The car
is 
>to be able to turn 11's, and the rest will be up to me. Anyone out there
with 
>this type of knowledge, your input would be greatly appreciated. 

I would reconsider on the rev limiter.  A single mistake or transmission 
malfunction can destroy an engine.

Dan Jones
1966 Mustang 2+2, 351V-4V, Tremec TKO
1974 Pantera L, Aussie 351C-2V, ZF