DeTomaso Mailing List: November 2000, Message #167

In a message dated 11/4/00 7:04:11, Concerts4u@aol.com writes:

<< My search has began and I just saw a 1972 pre-L. I understand that pantera 
owners are a family...

>>>'tis true! :>)

>...so I want to make sure I am fair and being treated 
fairly. Come to think of it maybe Pantera owners are more than a family if we 
are all fair with one another 
:-) 

>>>One would hope so, but that ain't necessarily so when you're dealing with 
somebody who has lost the faith and is selling his car. :<(

>Anyway, I could use some help - my desire to own one means I may make 
some assumptions that are incorrect because I am so READY to adopt! Your 
experience and comments will save me from myself. 

>>>It is rarely a good idea to rush into such a thing--the chances of you 
missing out on a great deal by going slow/steady are infinitesimally smaller 
than the chances of you screwing yourself by leaping before you (and somebody 
else) looks!

>Phone call revealed that this 72 is "100% no rust" owned for 13 years, 
cooling upgrades, he has never really had to do anything with it except 
change the oil and drive it. He said it was a driver though he rarely did and 
that with all drivers it wasn't perfect. 

>>>I have only seen a few cars that fall into the "rust-free driver" 
category.  Most drivers are just that, cars which have been driven and 
allowed to deteriorate to a certain degree.  Usually that leads to rust of 
one degree or another--sometimes minor, sometimes catastrophic.

>Why are you selling it? "I am 
getting to old for it." So its not so......can this really happen? 

>>>Actually, some beautiful cars trade hands because the owners figure out 
they are too old to enjoy them, or have physical difficulties which prevent 
them from even getting into/out of the cars (witness Tom Dupart's purchase...)

>So, I take 
the 10 hour round trip investigation tour and here is what I find.

Body:

Good shape no dents dings or fading. Repainted in past 5 years, can see over 
spray on some rubber etc. 

>>>Bummer--I hate it when people put crappy paint jobs on nice cars--they 
think they are improving the situation, but IMHO, an old (perhaps original) 
paint job always looks better than a crappy Earl Schieb-quality respray.

>Outside looked pretty good I thought, under didn't 
look as good. Rust has started on the bottom of the front spoiler area (the 
thicker stuff not just bubbles). 

>>>Very typical--this area was cleverly designed to TRAP water and it rusts 
from the inside out.  People often have leaky radiators which keeps the area 
saturated.  And you combine some water with road dirt/grime and what you're 
left with is MUD which just slowly eats the metal away.  It's not a big deal 
to replace it--see the in-depth repair on Mike Dailey's website.

>The rear deck lid when opened showed signs 
of rust colored stains near the back that could be cleaned off. 

>>>Maybe it's surface rust, but most of the time, IF you have evidence of 
rust (i.e. what you describe), there are usually pin-hole rust spots on the 
trailing edge (vertical portion) of the decklid.  Mine was rusted in a 
similar manner to what you describe--it looked fine except for some rust 
traces, and some bubbling on the trailing edge.  After stripping the paint, 
the body man used a torch and literally just went from one side to the other 
and burned away, leaving about a hundred tiny holes which were then welded up.

>Bumpers that 
would need to be re plated "rust pit holes" nothing going through. Rocker 
panel driver side has some bubbles starting. 

>>>Meaning there's a good chance that the middle (of three--inner, middle, 
outer) rocker panel is also rusting.  You can remove the inertia reel seat 
belt and peer inside and get a better idea, but the only REAL determination 
will be made after you physically cut off the outer rocker.  Maybe you get 
lucky like Chuck Melton (again, see Mike Dailey's site); maybe not.

>A number of pieces of hardware 
looked rusty (screws mostly).

>>>Given this, I'd expect to find chassis rust also.

Interior:

Both doors VERY tight, hard to open. 

>>>Probably got new weatherstripping when it was painted?  These cars are 
pretty tight when you replace the weatherstripping, as the new stuff is very 
slightly thicker than the original stuff.

>Smells a bit musty? Steering wheel cover 
needs replaced, gages cosmetically OK, fan controls could use some cosmetic 
help, shifter shaft rusty, knob needs replaced, parking brake collar rusty 
(works) 

>>>I keep hearing rust, rust, rust.  It would be a miracle if the chassis was 
sound.

>Dash leather coming unglued on top (waves), other than that 
everything works (except the air-conditioning, needs a compressor he says).

>>>He thinks.  Realistically, it would be smart to replace the hoses and 
condenser at the same time as you install a new rotary unit.  $600-800 in 
parts, plus labor.  Oh, and of course replace the expansion valve on the 
evaporator.

Engine bay:

Dirty!!!! I understand he's comment now about never did anything with it. 
looks like we have a leak here. Looking under the rear we did have a leak and 
we decided one of the first places we would take the car would be to a lift. 
Airfilter (open type) seems to have oil in it and is filthy. I hurt for the 
car when I saw this area and wanted to bandage it's wounds and heal it.

>>>As much as you may feel sympathy for a poor, neglected car, realize that 
should you choose to adopt such a car, it requires an extensive commitment of 
time, effort and MONEY to make it halfway decent.  I'm not suggesting that 
such cars should be abandoned; rather, I'm suggesting that they should be 
left for people who have either the resources ($$$) to have them properly 
fixed, or the desire/ability to do the work themselves strictly for the 
enjoyment of it.  If your goal is to have a neat, fun car, then buy one.  If 
your goal is specifically to tinker and restore a neglected car, then 
consider one like this.

>The Test drive:

Started pretty well for a 32 degree morning (I didn't mention that this car 
is outside with a cover for 3 seasons and stored inside in the winter) 

>>>THAT sounds rather moronic.  Borderline abuse...if he can store it inside 
SOME of the time, why not ALL of the time????

>I 
didn't ask that on the phone :-( Choke worked well engine sounded a bit rough 
with no obnoxious vibrations exhaust (rusty as it was) seemed to be holding 
it's own.

>>>There's that rust word again...plan on $1500-2000 for a decent exhaust 
system.

>I had the owner drive it first so I could have a look around and listen for 
things. Seemed solid, seats really cupped the old butt (I can only speak for 
mine mined you) did hear a bit of a tapping at first (not to loud) not sure 
if it is valves or exhaust. He say's on longer trips a whistle sound starts 
and thinks it is a vacuum leak. 

>>>A some-time vacuum leak?  I suppose anything's possible after things heat 
up.

>Playing with the knobs everything seems to 
work. Was Sanyo the stock radio?

>>>These cars didn't come with radios (in the USA anyway.)  Radios were a 
dealer-installed option; there were some "standard" models that many dealers 
used, but it's likely that the Sanyo was added considerably after 1972.

>OK we are at a shop and lifting it up, seems these were friends and no one 
was offering an opinion, including the selling except to say that it is 
coming from the top here. I am no mechanic, but it did seem to be coming from 
the driver side valve cover gasket dripping down the side and finding a home 
from the pan back. Color of this oil seemed to be newer vs. black. I first 
thought this is good.....then realized that it could be bad seeing the 
condition of everything else (freshly changed maybe?) The lift reveal no 
other surprises and everything else seemed in used car condition.

>>>Ah, but there's the rub.  Did you SERIOUSLY inspect the chassis for rust?  
Did you check for the crucial drain holes that should have been drilled in 
certain areas (not factory) to help water drain?  Cars lacking these holes 
that are in the condition you mention virtually ALWAYS have serious cancer 
here.

Check out http://members.aol.com/mikeldrew/drillingholes.jpg

If not, then you totally wasted your time with the car on the lift.  Oil 
leaks, even a totally trashed motor, are trivial compared to chassis rust. :<(

Here, take a look at some photos from Martin Mitchell's car (which was 
purchased out of a barn in Mass. after 13 years of unsympathetic storage.)  

http://members.aol.com/mikeldrew/chassisrust.jpg

The photos show the lower rear chassis, near where the driveshaft penetrates 
the sheetmetal and where the a-arms are installed.  In the first photo, the 
rusty metal has already been cut away, showing that the rust penetrated deep 
into the main chassis rails.  The later photos show the cut-away portion with 
the extensive rust.  If the panel is comprehensively thrashed, replacement 
panels are $2500-3000 EACH and require 40 hours of labor each to install.  
KA-CHING!  Localized repair can be much less, but at a minimum will cost $2K 
or so.

>My turn to drive it. Solid, firm, without rattles or vibration (what I 
considered out of the norm). 3rd gear seems to make some noise when shifting 
into it "repeatedly." I heard it with him a few times but seemed consistent 
when I drove it -- clutch was fully depressed and took time between shifts. 

>>>A crunching noise could be due to poor adjustment of the clutch 
hydraulics, and/or hydraulic systems going bad.  But if the car has been 
driven like that for any time, chances are the synchros have been thrashed.  
Welcome to a $3K gearbox overhaul. :<(

>After about 25 minutes of total car running time I thought the highway for 
acceleration would be nice. I took first gear slow but let it get to about 
4300 rpm's before shifting it to second - I got an uncomfortable look from 
the seller. I asked if he was OK and he shared he doesn't rev it that high as 
if this was abuse? 

>>>What a weenie! :>)

>I started thinking that the engine maybe in question. 
Pulled good -- but I really didn't push it. Needs tune up, etc., at a minimum 
to bring it back to life.

>>>A tired motor on a solid car is NO big deal.  A tired motor on a tired car 
is just more of a bummer.

>OK, if you have read this far chances are you desire to help -- why else 
would you listen to these ramblings? Except that you may be relating to one 
of your first considerations. 

Seller:

Nice guy sending mixed signals. I have no reason to question his honesty and 
I think the "no rust" thing was more about not paying attention than trying 
to be misleading. 

>>>Every parent things their kid is the smartest one in class.  Every seller 
thinks his car is just fine, and in some instances they are right.  Often 
they are wrong.  Some are unrealistic, others are blind, and others still are 
just plain deceitful.  Some are genuinely ignorant, and are deeply shocked 
when you discover deep, fundamental flaws that they didn't know about.  They 
can often become irate, but it's not your fault their car has gone down the 
tubes! :>)

>He was not going out of his way to sell me on the car by 
coming up with excuses or cheap fixes etc. I think he is right, it is a 
driver, and is not perfect. Our passions are a bit different -- he liked the 
car for what she is and I want to love the care for what she can become after 
a makeover. This being said I am thinking she may need more than a make over 
-- more like cosmetic surgery and years of therapy :-)

>>>Sounds like it.

Bottom Line:

Is this the condition of a 72 pre- L priced at $20,000 

>>>The rust is the big question-mark.  In general, I'd say this is about a 
$17-18K car, but if it had the type of chassis rust I'm expecting, then I'd 
be thinking more like $14-15K.  

>Remember I am trying 
to be fair not trying to talk someone down (because he say's he will come 
down no more).

>>>Which may very well be the case--he may own it for some time yet! :<(

>What do you think that I am in for -- if I buy? Would you buy it?
 
>>>I DID buy this car.  One substantially worse, actually.  I knew when I 
bought it that it had SOME rust--rather extensive rust in fact.  I just never 
comprehended the level of work required to exorcise it.  I purchased my car 
in 1989 for $13K (well, $16K with $3K in parts included), and am now into it 
for something between $60-70K and it's STILL not on the road, and when it is, 
I'd be lucky to get $35K for it.

Cal purchased a car that sounds like it was in considerably better condition 
than this one, and he's been up to his eyeballs in rusty Pantera for a year 
or more.  He's having a blast doing all the work himself, but if he was 
fixing this car with a checkbook, it would absolutely eat him alive.  

>Thank you for your input in advance! I have learned so much here in just a 
few short weeks.
 
>>>You really have to ask yourself what your goal is--to own a car, or a 
project.  If it's a project you desire, then fork over the $15-17K and be 
prepared to spend another $20K before you're done to have a car worth $30K 
tops.  But as long as you enjoy the process, then the money is well-spent.

If you want to buy a car, there are LOTS of decent Panteras out there, some 
of them solid and still in the low $20K zone (consider Matt Wells recent 
purchase.)  You can find a structurally solid but cosmetically challenged car 
for the high teens, then give it a decent paint job and actually come out 
okay financially, and have a truly nice car when you're done.  But as a 
general rule, you will ALWAYS be better off spending more up-front and buying 
a better car.

I hope this helps some...tell us where you are geographically located and I'm 
sure people will be able to point you at other cars somewhere closer to 
home....

Cheers!

Mike  (been there, done that, STILL paying for it...)