DeTomaso Mailing List: June 2001, Message #28

Tomas,

The pan is aluminum (as would be the fins).  Steel is not a very good 
conductor of heat.  The fins would be attached with screws initially for 
testing and then welded if successful.

The amount of power transfer is fairly straight forward.  It is governed by 
the surface area, (including the fin area for thick fins where there is no 
temp gradient from the tip to the root of the fin), the temperature 
gradient between the fins and the air, and the amount of air flow 
(including whether its turbulent flow or not).  If you moved the stove 
through the air at 140 MPH and had a large surface area on each burner with 
fins, it would not get red hot with only 1000W input!!!  The air would keep 
it cool.

In any case, more measurements need to be taken.  The bad news is with an 
engine putting out say 300 HP at 60% efficiency, 
(300*1.667)*(746W/HP)=373000W, subtracting 5000W from the oil pan may not 
do much!  We'll see.....

JB


At 10:55 PM 5/31/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>John,
>
>Are you adding fins to a steel pan? How are they being attached? The power
>transfers you mention sound kind of high. Compare it to a stove that has
>maybe 1 kW or so per pot. The stove gets glowing red if there's nothing on
>it. I'd say 200 W sounds more likely than 2000 W.
>
>Tomas
>
>----------
> > Från: John Bentley <jab@cisco.com>
> > Till: Multiple recipients of list <detomaso@realbig.com>
> > Ämne: Re: Race Oil & coolers
> > Datum:  den 31 maj 2001 20:10
> >
> > I had an ME friend do the back of the envelope analysis and if you add 1
> > inch fins spaced 1 inch apart to the bottom of the pan, you would triple
> > the amount of heat removed from the pan.  That would equate to an
>increase
> > in power from about 1970 watts to about 5784 watts.  That is a
>significant
> > amount of heat transfer!  His guess is a reduction in oil temp of tens of
>
> > degrees.
> >
> > When I get my new engine, I will run some experiments.  I'll collect air
> > temp, oil temp, vehicle speed and water temp data before and after adding
>
> > the fins.  More later.......
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
> > At 07:37 PM 5/29/2001 -0400, Mr ken green wrote:
> > >Like a lot of things, it should be a matter of degree,
> > >not a will work or won't work. It sounds like the oil
> > >is maybe 50 degrees hotter than the coolant. If an
> > >aluminum heat sink is bonded to the side of an oil
> > >pan, and under-car air is vented toward the heat sink,
> > >there has to be some reduction in oil temperature. If
> > >it's 2 degrees, it's not worth the trouble, but if it
> > >will drop the oil temperature from 260 degrees F to
> > >maybe 240, it might be worth looking into. There is a
> > >pretty big temperature gradient to work with here, and
> > >the air will be moving really fast, so maybe there is
> > >a chance to do a back of the envelope analysis?
> > >
> > >Ken
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Gray Gregory <rgg@gregorycook.com> wrote:
> > > > I definitely agree that it's no substitute for an
> > > > oil cooler. the question
> > > > is would it have any effect at all.
> > > >
> > > > Gray
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Cal Eustaquio" <catman351@digitalputty.com>
> > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list"
> > > > <detomaso@realbig.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 4:48 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Race Oil & coolers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > For some reason, I'm a little iffy on the
> > > > effective surface area a
> > > > > finned pan would have on the oil temp. You take a
> > > > look at some of the
> > > > > available oil coolers and their surface area seems
> > > > to be a bit more
> > > > > significant in terms of the amount of coil and
> > > > fins available to cool
> > > > > the oil. Cal. #2428.
> > > > >
> > > > > ---- Original Message ----
> > > > > From: rgg@gregorycook.com
> > > > > To: detomaso@realbig.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: Race Oil & coolers
> > > > > Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:18:58 -0400
> > > > >
> > > > > >Charlie,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > my 67 Ferrari has a finned aluminum oil pan and
> > > > I've wondered too
> > > > > >if that
> > > > > >would help the Pantera.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Gray
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Charlie Mccall"
> > > > <Charlie.Mccall@haworth.com>
> > > > > >To: "Multiple recipients of list"
> > > > <detomaso@realbig.com>
> > > > > >Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 5:49 PM
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Race Oil & coolers
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> This reminds me of something I've been
> > > > wondering for a while.
> > > > > >There are
> > > > > >many
> > > > > >>  motorcycle engines, and a few cars, that rely
> > > > only on air
> > > > > >cooling. As I'm
> > > > > >sure everyone
> > > > > >>  knows, they have tons of deep fins to give
> > > > lots of surface area
> > > > > >to allow
> > > > > >maximum
> > > > > >>  cooling. That being so, why aren't oil pans
> > > > finned? It would
> > > > > >obviously
> > > > > >not replace an
> > > > > >>  oil cooler, but a finned oil pan, especially
> > > > if it is getting
> > > > > >some good
> > > > > >airflow, ought to
> > > > > >>  make a measurable difference, with no increase
> > > > in moving parts of
> > > > > >potential for failure.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Could it be because pans are usually stamped
> > > > and not cast, and
> > > > > >therefore
> > > > > >it would be
> > > > > >>  tricky to add the fins? Someone would have
> > > > tried it by now if it
> > > > > >worked,
> > > > > >so why won't
> > > > > >>  it?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Charlie McCall
> > > > > >> 1972 DeTomaso Pantera #3847 (for sale)
> > > > > >> 1985 DeTomaso Pantera GT5-S #9375
> > > > > >> "Raising Pantera Awareness across Europe"
> > > > > >> http://briefcase.yahoo.com/gt5s_1985
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >>> Mr ken green <keninsocal@yahoo.com>
> > > > 05/26/01 10:16PM >>>
> > > > > >> I assume anyone worried about oil has a 10
> > > > quart pan.
> > > > > >> Given that is the case, the pan has 2 large
> > > > flat
> > > > > >> sides, and very hot oil inside. Looks like
> > > > about 1 1/2
> > > > > >> to 2 inches beween between the pan and the
> > > > chassis (my
> > > > > >> engine is out, so I might be off on this).
> > > > Based on
> > > > > >> htis,I have a couple ideas.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 1) It would be real easy to bond a heat sink to
> > > > one
> > > > > >> side. and maybe do something to direct some of
> > > > the
> > > > > >> under car air in that direction. This might be
> > > > really
> > > > > >> easy to test. With a 150 degree temperature
> > > > gradient,
> > > > > >> it might work. The problem is that there is
> > > > probably
> > > > > >> only about an inch to use here.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 2) A more interesting approach might be to bond
> > > > a flat
> > > > > >> fluid containing chamber to the side of the
> > > > pan, and
> > > > > >> run a couple lines for the fluid to a simple
> > > > radiator
> > > > > >> device. I know there have been refigerators
> > > > made with
> > > > > >> no moving parts. If the same method was used,
> > > > we could
> > > > > >> get a fluid to circultate with no pump. This
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > >> require touching the engine oil or coolant, so
> > > > a
> > > > > >> failure would have minumim consequences. I
> > > > think an
> > > > > >> inch thickness would be OK for this.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 2a) Maybe this can be done with just some kind
> > > > of
> > > > > >> simple convection based process?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 2b) What about a heat pipe (or is that a
> > > > variety of
> > > > > >> sky hook?)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Anybody have ideas on how to make #2 work?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 3) Like 2, but use a little electric pump on a
> > > > > >> thermostat.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Ken (was a systems engineer, not a thermo guy)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --- brockctella@juno.com wrote:
> > > > > >> > I'm still looking
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Fri, 25 May 2001 17:58:03 -0400 Pedro
> > > > Martini
> > > > > >> > <martinirace@yahoo.com>
> > > > > >> > writes:
> > > > > >> > > I am still looking for first hand
> > > > experience from
> > > > > >> > > racers so same question as before - but
> > > > this time
> > > > > >> > the
> > > > > >> > > subject is on engine motor oil and engine
> > > > motor
> > > > > >> > oil
> > > > > >> > > coolers for engurance races like Silver
> > > > State.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > What you think is the most effective race
> > > > oil and
> > > > > >> > oil
> > > > > >> > > cooler for this application?
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > What experience have you personally found
> > > > in
> > > > > >> > reducing
> > > > > >> > > your oil temp if any, by using synthetic
> > > > motor oil
> > > > > >> > in
> > > > > >> > > races and what improvement have you found
> > > > using
> > > > > >> > which
> > > > > >> > > mfg. oil?  Provide the temp. recordings if
> > > > you
> > > > > >> > > measured them before or after.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > And what improvment did you realize if any,
> > > > using
> > > > > >> > an
> > > > > >> > > oil cooler and what mfg. oil cooler did you
> > > > use?
> > > > > >> > And
> > > > > >> > > what do you think is the best oil cooler
> > > > > >> > application
> > > > > >> > > out there on the market right now?
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > You may respond to me off-line if you wish.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Thanks,
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Pete "The Kid" Martini
> > > > > >> > > Team Pantera Racing
> > > > > >> > > If you are not on the edge you are taking
> > > > up
> > > > > >> > space.
> > > >
> > >=== message truncated ===
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> > >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
> >

John Bentley
Wireless Systems
Cisco Systems, Inc.
408.525.9336