[DeTomaso] fuel injection

Fri Jul 21 12:19:04 EDT 2006

Most of you guys that know me, know me as being high tech and have used my 
share of various E.F.I. units. I recently sold my V.R. intake set up(about a 
year ago) along with other goodies and started working on a cheaper test 
engine for alternative fuels, but not E-85. Carbs are definately cheaper for 
power but you will spend more time at gas stations.....
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul A. Rimov" <PARimov at charter.net>
To: "Brian" <gypsy at myspeedworks.com>; "hoppe1" <hoppe1 at cox.net>; "Kirby 
Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>; "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] fuel injection


> Unless you are still using a points distributor your ignition is just as 
> vulnerable to an EMP. You may have fuel but no spark
>
> Paul
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Brian" <gypsy at myspeedworks.com>
> To: "hoppe1" <hoppe1 at cox.net>; "Kirby Schrader" 
> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>; "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] fuel injection
>
>
>> Hi all, just figured I would throw this in the equation. In the event of 
>> a nuclear blast an E.F.I. will be destroyed where a carb will keep on 
>> trucking.....obviously there are conditions that do apply here.... 
>> electro magnetic pulse kills computers..... just something to think 
>> about. we do have some crazy, sick you know whats in the world today
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "hoppe1" <hoppe1 at cox.net>
>> To: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>; "Ken Green" 
>> <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] fuel injection
>>
>>
>>>I have the electromotive tec 3 system in my car. It was my third EFI 
>>>system. I have programed a lot myself and have spent $1300 of dyno time.
>>> If you are like me and enjoy tinkering with the car and want to know 
>>> everything you can about it and you want to be techno current you need 
>>> to be hands on to EFI.  If you only want a good running car let the 
>>> vendor do it. You will probably be money ahead.   If you are money 
>>> conscious a carb still does a great job. The more I learned about what 
>>> EFI needed to do to make the car run, the more I respected a carb for 
>>> what it does. Not sure the EFI is worth the time and money for the 
>>> average car.
>>> Rich
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] fuel injection
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> EFI seems almost like religion these days....  :-)
>>>>
>>>> I _did_ tune my EFI without a dyno. I used a Haltech F9A and Quella's 
>>>> IR setup.
>>>> Ancient? I guess. Worked well once I got it tuned.
>>>>
>>>> I tuned it on the street, cruising on the highway and at the track.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it took some time, but when driving back and forth to work 
>>>> everyday, it was easy to tweak it everyday in the normal course of 
>>>> driving. Cold start was a real pain since it had to be cold outside 
>>>> (winter) and you got one shot at it a day in reality since once  warmed 
>>>> up, you didn't need the cold start map. The 'accelerator pump'  was 
>>>> also a trial and error thing.
>>>>
>>>> Based on the 'take it to a dyno' advice I got from everyone, I did 
>>>> eventually. We couldn't get any more out of the engine than I already 
>>>> had mapped. Nice flat curves.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. It would sure map quicker on a dyno as long as yourself or  the 
>>>> tuning people knew your system as indicated by Fred.
>>>>
>>>> I enjoyed learning about it myself since I had never dealt with EFI 
>>>> before.
>>>>
>>>> And I'll bet Roger Sharp's car still has the map I gave to his friend 
>>>> one step at a time over the phone one night.
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> FWIW,
>>>>
>>>> Kirby
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 20 Jul 2006, at 19:13, Ken Green wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>       Based on Dan's recommendations, I bought the Dynomation  engine 
>>>>> modeling software last year.  In a conversation with the  Dynomation 
>>>>> folks, I asked if anyone was using a simulation to build  maps, and 
>>>>> they said they were currently working on that with FAST  (part of Comp 
>>>>> Cams, I think), and were having good results in at  least starting out 
>>>>> a lot closer.  If this is successful, hopefully  it will become common 
>>>>> and make DYI EFI systems easier to get up and  running.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net> wrote:
>>>>>   Dan,
>>>>>
>>>>> The equipment the shop I use is quite pricey still. Not knowing
>>>>> that much about what they have, the dollars seemed to make more of
>>>>> an impression than anything else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I tried tuning my DFI on the road using an O2 sensor and the
>>>>> calibration software but found it to somewhat hit and miss. The
>>>>> guys at Second Street Speed remember their pre-dyno days with a
>>>>> roll of their eyes. In under three hours they mapped my injection
>>>>> starting at a 10% loading on their chassis dyno and increased this
>>>>> to 40% while building a map from 1000 rpm to 6000 rpm. It was
>>>>> explained that anything after about a 40% loading translates as
>>>>> wheel spin on the road, so they went from 40% to full loading at
>>>>> WOT. I don't pretend to know much about injection mapping but I do
>>>>> see the merits of three hours of dyno work against trying the same
>>>>> on the road. Final adjustments are usually required for
>>>>> driveability. I guess mapping is possible while driving around the
>>>>> intestates but it seems unnecessary when dyno shops are so much
>>>>> faster and accurate. Most of the EFI owners I know usually end up
>>>>> on the dyno.
>>>>>
>>>>> Building a whole map from scratch is a lot more involved than
>>>>> changing some jets that are fairly close at the start. A jet
>>>>> defines the equivalent of an entire map but with an EFI, the
>>>>> entire map must be defined a cell at a time. There are enrichment
>>>>> parameters that mimic throttle pumps and a whole gamut of other
>>>>> parameters that modify the base fuel table but the initial map
>>>>> must be defined. I feel whole process is much easier using a
>>>>> chassis dyno.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred T.
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniel C Jones wrote:
>>>>>>> The only way to accurately determine the proper mapping as well as
>>>>>>> set other parameters is to have the job done on a chassis dyno. It
>>>>>>> certainly is hard to beat a $3500 wide band O2 sensor in a skilled
>>>>>>> technicians' hands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wide band O2's have come way down in price. There are several that
>>>>>> sell in the $300 to $400 range and there's a rather inexpensive
>>>>>> do-it-yourself WB02. I'm curious if you have attempted to tune an
>>>>>> EFI system with a wide band on the road? It sure makes tuning carbs
>>>>>> easy. I've not yet tuned an EFI system from scratch that way but
>>>>>> we've tweaked a car that had a decent baseline before it had a series
>>>>>> of changes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe the system Quella sells is a rather dated Haltec EFI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might want to verify if he still uses the Haltech. I know of one
>>>>>> car that was recently at his shop that did not use a Haltech. Given
>>>>>> the exchange rates and Haltech pulling it's U.S. distributor may have
>>>>>> caused Dennis to switch ECU's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The throttle bodies he uses are readily adaptable to any modern
>>>>>>> EFI such as Electromotive or Motec that have electronic ignitions
>>>>>>> and data logging incorporated in their capabilities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup. Treat manifolding and controller as separate but related issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan Jones
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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