Comp Roller Cam With Crane lifters....Re: [DeTomaso] Rods lifters,
best fit.
Thomas Tornblom
Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
Fri Sep 1 11:51:53 EDT 2006
charles buthala wrote:
> Yes as usual this forum is a great source of info, thank you all for your input. Being neophyte to the mechanics of the 351C do you have to have a special cam for roller lifters or is current cam I have using the hydraulic flats OK?
Roller lifters need a special cam.
I'm no expert in this field, but there are at least three reason for this:
1) A flat tappet (cast iron) cam core is too soft to stand the pressure
from a roller lifter.
2) Flat tappet cam lobes are slanted, which promotes lifter rotation.
Roller lifters do not rotate in the bores, and the lobes must be
straight to get a large contact surface with the roller.
3) The geometry will be different, leading to different cam timing.
Thomas
>
> Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote: Dr. Dan,
> As usual another outstanding post....After two plus years, 12 ORR's and a bunch of street miles on the last engine I'm definately a born again hyd-roller Comp Cams fan....Russ Fulps also added the Crane lifters to my last build
>
> Thanks again for sharing all your knowledge so openly with all of us.
>
> YOU DA MAN
>
> md
>
> Daniel C Jones wrote:
>> Now I am "feeling the need" to go to a hydraulic roller - what are
>> some of the "things I need to know to ask?"
>
> There are two approaches to install a hydraulic roller cam in a 351C. The
> first replicates what Ford did with the 5.0L V8. On the 5.0L, Ford used a
> stamped steel hold down bracket (a.k.a. the "spider"), individual hydraulic
> roller lifters and bars (a.k.a "dog bones") that pair the lifters together
> to keep the roller oriented on the camshaft. Ford also revised the block
> casting with bosses for the spider and taller lifter bores. The cam material
> was changed from iron to steel and a matching steel gear installed on the
> distributor. The spider bolts to the lifter valley to retain each pair of
> lifters. The lifter bore height was increased to match the taller roller
> lifters which also required shorter pushrods. Clevelands were not originally
> equipped with roller lifters so their lifter bores are relatively short and
> the block was not cast with bosses for the spider. To use this approach in
> a 351C, you'll need to drill and tap a couple of holes in the block for the
> spider and a reduced base circle cam that lowers the taller roller lifters
> in their bores are required. Comp Cams hydraulic roller retrofit kits use
> this approach. Since the lifter is taller and the base circle of the cam
> is changed, figure on custom length (shorter) pushrods. It varies from
> block-to-block but there may be an interference problem. The cast-in X's
> behind the lifters in the corners of the valley in 351C blocks can interfere
> with the spider and may have to be ground down. It may not end there. A
> friend ordered a custom hydraulic roller cam from Comp and tried to install
> it in his iron 351C block. The Ford 5.0L type lifters (which measure the
> same as the Comp lifters) hit the dog bones in a couple of the lifter bores.
> Apparently the lifter bore height varies enough in production 351C blocks to
> make some of them too short for the Ford or Comp lifters. Though Comp assured
> him it would all fit, they refused to refund him the cost of the custom cam.
> His fix was to try the second method.
>
> The second approach uses paired (aftermarket) roller lifters tied together
> by link bars attached directly to the lifter bodies. This disepenses with
> the spider and dog bones arrangement and any potential interference issues.
> Crane was the first to make these lifters for a 351C but Comp has recently
> introduced a version as well. The Crane aftermarket link bar lifters have
> the oil hole lower on the body so don't need a taller lifter bore or a
> reduced base circle cam. Cranes lifters are p/n 36532-16. The same lifters
> are also sold by Ford Motorsport under part number M-6500-S58 ("Early Block
> Hydraulic Roller Lifter Set"). Edelbrock also sells a linked lifters for
> SBF applications under part number 97453. The Crane lifters are widely
> recognized as the best currently on the market. They are stronger, have
> better tolerances and generally provide better RPM than the OEM Ford lifters.
> A friend uses the Ford Motorsport version of the Crane lifters and has tested
> them to 9000 RPM. The downside is the lifters are over $400 a set but they
> are re-usable (unlike flat tappet lifters).
>
> Rhoads also makes their variable duration lifters in hydraulic roller
> form. The small block Ford part numbers are RL-1008 (standard Rhoads)
> and RL-1008X for the new Vmax (higher RPM, require adjustable valve train)
> versions. Note that though Rhoads offers link bar styles for Chevy
> applications, the Ford offerings are not link bar.
>
> On 5.0L the heads were revised to allow removal of the lifters without
> removing the cylinder heads. This isn't a problem on a 351C (or 351W)
> due to the taller deck height. There's also a lift limitation with the
> stock Ford type lifters.
>
> If you check the Comp catalog you'll see they list the same spring for
> every one of their 351C hydraulic roller catalog grinds from the 260HR
> (1200 to 4500 RPM, max lift of 0.510") to the 304HR (3000 to 6500 RPM,
> 0.612" lift). You definitely want the upgrade spring (or more) for
> something like the 304HR. Crane's catalog also lists a single spring for
> their range of 351C hydraulic rollers but their standard spring package
> (dual with damper) is a fair bit it stiffer.
>
> Another consideration to be aware of when ordering a hydraulic roller
> cam is the cam core and lobe compatibility. Hydraulic roller cam lobes
> are shaped differently from race type solid roller profiles and require
> their own cam cores. Attempting to grind a hydraulic roller lobe on a
> steel core designed originally for a solid race roller cam will break
> through the surface treatment. I ran into this problem with Comp Cams.
> I worked with David Vizard to spec a custom cam for my engine. That cam
> used Comp 3636 and 3637 hydraulic roller lobes. Comp's catalog retrofit
> hydraulic roller grinds use an austempered ductile iron cam core but
> Vizard thought I should use a stronger 8620 steel cam core with those
> lobes so that's what was ordered. I was later contacted by Comp and
> informed they couldn't put those lobes on an 8620 steel core. Comp's -8
> austempered ductile iron cores are used for hydraulic roller and milder
> street solid roller grinds. Their -9 cores are 8620 steel solid roller
> cam cores. Comp said grinding the desired shape on the -9 cores would
> penetrate the surface treatment. Comp also uses a reduced base circle
> cam which I wasn't particularly fond of. In the end, I cancelled the
> Comp order and went with a similar grind from Crane. Crane uses standard
> base circle 8620 steel cam cores for their 351C hydraulic roller cams.
> Be aware that different lifters have different diameter rollers and
> there may be compatibility issues with very small base circles. Crane
> says their roller lifters are fine on 1.090" diameter reduced base circle
> cams.
>
> Since roller camshafts are not tapered, a retaining plate or camshaft
> button must be installed to keep the cam from walking. FRPP has either
> iron or steel retaining plates for 351C's and recommends the iron plate
> for timing sets with iron gears and the steel for timing sets with
> steel gears. Check the stack height for proper timing chain alignment
> once everything is installed.
>
> In general, hydraulic roller lifters don't rev as high as flat tappets
> for a given spring pressure. The Cleveland's heavy valves and 1.73:1
> rocker ratio only makes things worse. There are several things that can
> be done to extend the RPM range:
>
> 1. Better lifters (Crane link bars)
> 2. Better springs and lighter retainers (beehives with nickel size
> titanium retainers)
> 3. Lighter valves (titanium or Ferrear hollow stem steel)
> 4. Tailored lobes (for RPM)
>
> As an example of what can be done, a friend of mine turns in excess of
> 9000 RPM with a hydraulic roller cam using all the tricks (Crane lifters,
> solid roller springs, titanium valves and retainers, Anderson Ford
> Motorsport "Hi Rev" lobe profile). Granted, it's a drag race only bullet
> but it shows what is possible.
>
> Finally, there's the distributor gear and cam core material compatibility
> issue. I recently posted about this but here's a review. There are
> several distributor gears to choose from:
>
> 1. Cast Iron Distributor Gears
> These are the standard distributor gears used on hydraulic and solid flat
> tappet camshafts which use iron cores. Not compatible with most hydraulic
> or solid roller cam steel cores. However, Comp Cams claims there -8 part
> number hydraulic rollers (which use a cast iron core) are compatible with
> standard cast iron cam gears. Note that some cast iron gears from auto
> parts stores are substantially softer than OEM iron gears. Also note that
> some cam companies use a harder core for certain race solid flat tappet
> grinds which may require a bronze (or other material) gear.
>
> 2. Ford Motorsport Steel Gear
> P/N M-12390-J (1.421" OD, 0.531" ID, for 351C) in the FRPP catalog.
>>From page 105 of the 2005 FRPP catalog: "Steel gears are compatible with
> billet steel camshafts (hydraulic roller type)". Comp Cams also claims
> the Ford gears are compatible with their -8 austempered ductile iron
> hydraulic roller cam cores (Comp also uses the -8 cores for some solid
> street roller cams). According to MSD, the Ford mild steel distributor
> gears (as fitted to engines with factory hydraulic-roller-cams) are softer
> than the common ductile iron gears, but harder than bronze. MSD also
> claims that Chevy uses a harder cam core for it's factory hydraulic rollers
> and uses cast iron gears but that its gears don't last as long as the Ford
> gears. Some 5.0L Ford racers have used the Ford gear on steel cam cores
> without incident and some builders run the Ford steel gear on cast iron
> flat tappet cams as well.
>
> 3. Crane Steel Gear
> Crane has a coated steel gear which they claim is compatible with induction
> hardened or carburized steel roller cores, as well as iron flat tappet cores.
> Their website refers to it them as "specially coated and processed steel
> distributor gears using either cast flat faced lifter or steel roller
> camshafts". They list two part numbers for 351C distributors:
>
> 52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft diameter
> 52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft diameter
>
> Crane does not recommend the use of their gears on camshafts that have been
> previously run with other types or materials of gears. Comp did not recommend
> this gear on their -8 cores. Mike Trusty ran a Crane gear and had it fail in
> short order. Asa Jay currently runs Crane's gear on a Crane steel roller cam.
> I'm told but have not verified that Crane's earliest steel gears were made
> like the Ford gears but their new gears are different. It may be the case
> that Mike's gear was the early version and Asa Jay's the late? In any case,
> I've spoken with several people who are running the current Crane gears with
> no problems. Asa Jay was kind enough to remove his distributor and check the
> gear and reported it had a normal contact pattern and wear.
>
> 4. Mallory Distributor Gear
> Mallory makes a distributor gear for their distributors that are made
> specifically for "austempered ductile iron billets" and "proferal billet"
> cams. It is supposed to be compatible with the Comp Cams austempered iron
> cam cores. As I understand it, the gear is heat-treated for compatibility.
>
> 5. Bronze-Aluminum Distributor Gears
> Generally softer than iron. Compatible with most cam cores but wears
> rapidly. A bronze distributor gear is essentially sacrificial, wearing
> the distributor gear instead of the roller cam gear. Usually specified
> for solid roller cams. Note that hardness can vary from manufacturer to
> manufacturer. If running one of these gears, you may want to run an
> oil filter without a bypass so the filter catches the wear particles.
> On a 351C, consider using Purolator oil filter number L30119. It's a
> full size replacement for the FL-1A Ford/PH8A Fram filter. It has no
> bypass spring in the middle but it does have the rubber flapper for
> anti-drainback. The original application is for a 1978 Nissan 510, 2.0L
> 4 cyl engine (L20B) which had the bypass valve in the engine block.
> This filter cross-references to a Fram PH2850, a Motorcraft FL-181,
> and a Wix 51452. However, those filters have not been verified and may
> have a bypass. It appears after 1978, Nissan went to a half height
> filter. Purolator part number L22167 fits that application and does not
> have the bypass spring but does have the rubber flapper for anti-drainback.
> Race engines may want to run dual filters.
>
> 6. Comp Cams Carbon Ultra-Poly Composite Distributor Gear
> Also meant as a replacement for rapid wearing bronze gears, Comp has a
> composite material gear. These are currently only available for Windsor
> Fords and small and big block Chevys.
>
>> Any hope of a bazillion hp, tractor like torque, long lived valve trains
>> and a date w/ a keno girl that can suck the chome off a trailer hitch?
>
> What a guy does with his weekends is his own concern :-)
>
> Dan Jones
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> Mad Dawg Antenucci
> Team Pantera Racing
> The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
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Real life: Thomas Törnblom Email: Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
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